Wednesday, September 24, 2008

Daphne on Frasier

Originally posted at Fatly Yours on Wednesday, September 24, 2008

I liked Frasier a lot. It was an unusually intelligent sitcom. The characters were likeable yet flawed, not simple stereotypes. Frasier and his brother Niles were obnoxious rich snobs, but with a heart, and the show was both funny and touching. Jane Leeves played Daphne, a quirky British physical therapist with a quick wit. She also became Niles' secret crush for years to come.

When Daphne and Niles finally hooked up in the eighth season, Leeves had just become pregnant. The writers apparently didn't know how to handle this. A pregnancy that early on would have been difficult to fit in the storyline (since Daphne had just left her fiancé, the baby might have been his). Their solution was to make her fat.

After my own weight gain, I have always wanted to see a sympathetic, realistic portrayal of a young woman gaining weight. Women on TV seem to either already be fat or skinny and stay that way, and the fat female characters are almost always elderly. Since most people don't get fat overnight, I think it would be interesting to explore the weight issues from a calm everyday angle, rather than the usual "lol, fatty loves to eat!" point of view. Frasier was more intelligent than most sitcoms, so this could have been possible. However, the writers suffered from what I suspect is a simple case of ignorance and ambivalence on the issue. They didn't know what to do with this storyline, and it was all over the place.

Temporarily fatter sitcom characters, who always quickly lose the weight, generally make me mad. I even hated that episode of Seinfeld, and I love Seinfeld. It's just not a good idea to make your character gain weight all of a sudden, unless you have something real to say about it. Most writers don't.

I know I'm asking for way too much, but here's how I wish it had gone down:
1. Daphne gains a little weight, preferably without snacking constantly or changing her eating habits in a major way.
2. Horrified, she goes on a very strict diet. The others around her are concerned. Bonus points if the diet is doctor-prescribed.
3. She loses the weight, then quickly gains it back, and develops an obsessive spiral of dieting, thus gaining even more weight.
4. In the end, Frasier and Niles confront her about her dieting, and try to help her understand why she's so obsessed with her weight. Bonus points if she takes her time losing the weight, or doesn't lose it at all.

And here's the way it went down. Imagine eye-rolling at most points:
1. When Daphne and Niles get together, he keeps taking her on lavish dinners and bringing her chocolates, etc. Daphne starts overeating and gains weight.
2. In the course of a couple of months, Dapne gains sixty pounds (!!).
3. In the end, she is forced to face her weight gain. She decides to diet and Niles tries to help her, but she keeps cheating by hiding food all over the house.
4. When she gets caught cheating, Niles and Frasier are sympathetic to her issues and suggest a spa diet.
5. Daphne goes to the spa, then comes back in some weeks, having lost all of the weight. She never gains weight again (except when she gets pregnant the following season).

This is wrong on so many levels. The extreme weight gain could have been a sign of a serious illness or an eating disorder, but no one even considers that. Do people really gain 60 pounds in the course of a few months, only to lose it all within the same year? To add insult to injury, Jane Leeves came back from her maternity leave looking thinner than ever.

In each episode, Daphne is shown eating all the time, completely oblivious to how others might see this. Frasier's father Martin makes mean fat jokes when she's out of the room, and people whisper about her weight gain behind her back. No one makes remarks to Daphne's face, however, because they want to be tactful. Martin says he will mention the issue to Daphne "after she's too big to chase me but before she needs the motorized scooter" - a good example of the mean-spirited and uninspired fat jokes in this season. The studio audience, to their credit, had to be told to laugh. There was zero reaction at first, so they were told that Jane here is pregnant, please bear with us. The reaction should have been a sign that this does. not. work.

Frasier, who's a psychiatrist, doesn't handle this very professionally. He participates in Martin's jokes about Daphne and seems appalled at her eating habits. When time comes to confront Daphne about her problem, he can't find a way to say anything to her or even to Niles. There's a whole awkward scene where he tries to show Niles his concern, and Niles keeps misunderstanding him. People who can say mean stuff behind your back, but can't talk about your weight to you in a constructive way are usually not all that accepting. I wonder how Frasier would deal with a patient who had a "weight problem".

In the scene where it all comes out, Daphne and Niles come home from a restaurant and she falls and sprains her ankle. Niles, who's puny, can't lift her, and she has to face the reality of her weight gain. I felt this scene was an awfully contrived way of bringing on the big realization. Does there have to be one big moment like that? Most people are acutely aware of any weight gain, let alone sixty pounds in just a couple of months. Had they shown Daphne worrying about her weight before, being defensive about it, asking Niles if she's still attractive to him, etc., it would have made her much more real and relatable. Of course, that would have made all the fat jokes seem mean, so it would have spoiled all the "fun".

Daphne says, "I've spent weeks watching meself expand. I kept hoping it would go away by itself." This, to me, reads as "fatties delude themselves". Would it really be possible to ignore for that long? She would have had to change her entire wardrobe. Besides, most women I know would jump straight into "OMG, I'm such a fat pig" when they gain weight. I still do that too, despite my FA beliefs. So I call bullshit on this attitude. Niles apologizes for all the lavish dinners, but Daphne thinks it's her own fault: "I just need to develop some willpower." This I liked, because it was a realistic, self-aware response. (Even if I don't agree with the idea of "willpower" presented here.)

Martin comes in to help with the lifting, and Daphne now shows she's aware of his jokes: "No cracks, old man! I know I've gotten heavy and I've resolved to do something about it." The latter part bugs. She seems to be saying that it's no longer OK to make fun of her body, but it was OK when she was still stuffing her face. Why is this the only time we see Daphne confronting Martin about his attitude? One of my pet peeves, when TV characters make fat jokes, is that the fatty never gets to say anything sassy back. Daphne used to be sassy, but that was dropped when she gained weight.

I also felt that this scene, which ends with Frasier coming in and helping them lift Daphne, was unnecessarily humiliating. Does her moment of realization need an audience? I've noticed this in both cartoons and sitcoms: the moment of transition from fatty to dieter comes through a moment of humiliation - usually getting stuck or breaking something. This even allows for more dull fat jokes; Martin blithely notes: "It took three Cranes to lift you." Hilarious.

Niles tries to help Daphne by getting her an exercise machine and leaner food. After a while, she is caught hiding donuts and chocolate bars all around the house. On the one hand, I don't think it would have made sense for her to suddenly stop overeating cold turkey. On the other hand, I found the hidden snacks to be an annoyingly stereotypical fatty joke (OMG donuts!). This is, again, keeping with the tradition of fat hate in comics and sitcoms: fatty has no willpower, so others need to make her diet, and she will continue to fight against it in secret. When she's caught, Daphne breaks down, cries and admits that she has a problem. The reaction from both Niles and Frasier is sympathetic:

Niles: Come here, come here, it's all right my love. We're going
to get you through this.
Frasier: Of course we will, Daph. You know, there are professionals
who can help.
Martin: Yeah, they can wire your jaw shut, staple your stomach, put
a balloon in your gut...
Frasier: Thank you Dad! I was referring to something more like a spa,
all right? Although you might look into that jaw thing!


This time, Martin is confronted by Frasier (an element of hypocrisy on his part, since he did laugh at Daphne behind her back). I liked how Martin's extreme suggestions aren't treated as valid options. However, the fat jokes in the previous episodes sort of ruin the sympathetic attitude here. The only one who gets a pass from me is Niles, who has been nothing but caring to Daphne throughout. What I missed in this scene was the possibility that Daphne might not have to lose weight after all. If there's an eating problem, it can be helped without a weight loss goal, right? It bugs me that the writers didn't even see this as an option. If you've gained weight, you must lose it.

Upon Daphne's arrival, the others throw her a surprise welcome party. Her therapist has told her that Niles was looking at her through "love goggles" and not even noticing the weight gain. In fact, the therapist believes Daphne ate because she wanted to rebel against the idealized picture Niles has of her. Niles is hurt by this, which leads to the couple's first fight. Frasier tries to talk it over with Niles and says: "The woman gained sixty pounds, and everyone in the world saw it but you. All you ever saw was a perfect woman in a red dress." It may be true, but I don't like his vaguely despising tone here - "the woman"? - and the idea that everyone saw it. Well, I guess I don't mind that everyone saw it, but rather that everyone was staring and commenting at it behind her back. It still seems like Frasier thinks that's perfectly OK.

In the end, Daphne and Niles accept each other's flaws and make up. The weight gain/loss is used as a transition in their relationship.

David Hyde Pierce, who plays Niles, says in an interview:

“It was very important that the issue wasn’t her being overweight, since weight gain or loss is a very sensitive issue and not to be treated lightly, especially when so many people in Hollywood are really thin.”


It's a bit puzzling that they obviously gave this some thought and yet managed to make the plot pretty offensive. Yes, it's a sensitive issue - which is why you might want to not make fat jokes when you have a storyline like this. Also, it seems to me like her weight was the issue - why else go to a weight loss spa instead of seeing an eating disorders specialist or something? I seem to remember an older interview that I can no longer find, where Pierce mentioned that fans found it sweet that Niles loves Daphne and doesn't really even notice her weight gain. It says a lot about the audience's expectations, but I could almost agree that it is sweet - if it weren't for the "Niles is oblivious to Daphne's flaws" and "Daphne's trying to make herself unattractive" aspects. It's not completely unfeasible that she would do this, and it at least elevates the plot beyond "fatties love eating". But I was hoping that Niles' non-reaction could have been caused by something more positive - genuine love, seeing fat as attractive, or just not caring about weight.

So what does this storyline change? Nothing. No one learns anything. Daphne and Niles have to face each other's flaws, which they would have done eventually anyway. Martin wasn't confronted about his attitude. Daphne returns to status quo. Everyone's views on fat were validated through Daphne's crash diet, and that's it. Most sitcoms are known for their shallow treatment of deeper issues, but I think Frasier could have done better. I wouldn't say this about a show I have less respect for, but I really think this storyline was a disgrace.

13 comments:

  1. I know this is an old post, but I was watching a season 8 episode of Frasier, one of the first in the season, where the point of Daphne's weight issue becomes a plot and searches on the web lead me to your post.

    I agree with most of what you're say, and I mean most in the 99% way. Haha.

    I think the only thing that might have befuddled and bewildered the writers was that during pregnancy, Jane would gain weight exponentially quicker than we might assume, and would then (with her career choices and resources available) would drop the weight suddenly with the birth of her child and the use of post-pregnancy trainers and other things some of us wish we could afford. Hahaha.

    This possibility might have moved the writers to creating a mostly-unrealistic story of weight loss and gain that DID NOT involve a pregnancy, and malign any efforts to open the eyes of America to the struggles with weight people suffer through every day in this country.

    Other than that, I agree with you on the points you presented. In one way, however, it could be possible that the malicious jokes and such could serve as a way to lighten the views one might have of themselves as an overweight person. I love Daphne, and I appreciate her struggle (even the unrealistic parts) and I love that Niles acts as the source of strength and acceptance that Daphne should have possessed herself. Knowing she had someone like that that loved her no matter what her weight, I think, could help people all over to realize that weight is hardly important...and you are still lovable and wonderful and awesome even despite the weight gain. Sort of a reverse psychology thing...fitting for the setting. Hahaha.

    I dunno exactly why I felt compelled to send this, but I was ignited by your writing and I felt the urge to respond. Keep up the great work. :)

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  2. Thanks for the comment! I guess the humor could be a nice way to lighten things up, IF it were Daphne herself telling the jokes. What bugs me the most is that she was presented as this oblivious glutton who didn't even notice she was gaining weight, until the very last episode of the story arc. If she had been the one to comment on her weight, and had been countering the others' comments from the start, I might have felt differently.

    In one way, it's totally sweet that Niles loves her the way she is. In another way, if he truly loves her, shouldn't we expect that weight gain doesn't change things? I know it's more complex than that, but I worry that people tend to find this "sweet" because they'd expect for him to be repulsed by fat Daphne.

    Pregnancy weight gain is a tricky thing. I know on King of Queens, they just had Carrie gain weight and didn't really even refer to it in ages. On some other shows, they just hide the belly as best they can (Seinfeld). I'm not sure what I'd do if I were a TV writer.

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  3. They did a good job, it's a sitcome and supposed to be funny, Frasier is one of the best comedy's ever made. Why pick it apart because of the issue of weight gain? There are so many other things to worry about in life seriously. Besides most overwieght people over eat, there own doing. Get over it.

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  4. 1.They did not do a good job, it's a very unrealistic depiction of a woman's weight gain.

    2. The studio audience didn't even laugh at first. No, it's not funny.

    3. I love Frasier, actually. That's exactly why I expected better of them.

    4. Fat is a huge issue in our culture, and if we don't discuss it or think about it, it's going to continue to be a huge issue. Trust me, I wish I didn't care about weight at all, and I'm trying to build a life where weight doesn't matter. That's why I write about it.

    5. I'm not going to get into the "fat people eat too much" crap. I've already discussed it enough before. Bottom line, you don't know what "most" overweight people eat, so don't make assumptions.

    6. Learn how to spell.

    7. If you don't like thinking, don't read my blog.

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  5. I know this is an old post as well, but the episode is on WEtv right now and I found this while googling the episode. I don't know what it feels like to be overweight. I was an underweight child and as an adult, I watch what I eat and exercise a lot. I know that I'm fortunate to also have a fast metabolism. However, I do know what it's like to have adult acne, a big nose and a physical deformity that required me to wear an obtrusive back brace for six years of my adolescence. I've seen each of these made fun of just about every sitcom (including Frasier). I'm not trying to one-up your complaint or anything like that, but merely point out that sitcoms poke fun and inevitably someone is always going to be offended. For what it's worth, Frasier is constantly making nasty comments at how thin Lilith and Maris are and though not as common as obesity, for some, being underweight can be just as difficult as being overweight.

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    1. First, as an aside, they really make fun of Lilith for being pale and cold, not thin. the jokes about Maris were just as much about her being cold as thin. The thin jokes normally were delivered as morbid facts, such as her being so thin she was mistaken for a lamp shade or a coat rack, or her diet consisting more of pills than food. But again, these jokes were behind the fourth wall where the cast (primarily Niles) made comments alluding to this creature that could not exist in nature. who did not have the muscle capacity to lift more than her own body weight. He said them lovingly, not intending them to be humorous. Interestingly, Maris actually gains weight at one point when she begins binge eating in response to failings in her love life. They make fun of it throughout the entire episode. nad it's here that you can see some actual unadulterated fat jokes."We had to butter her up to get her to into your bedroom." "Yes I suspected that narrow doorway would prove a challenge."

      As someone who has always had to fight against his own weight problems, I was in no way offended by the humor in the show and even laughed when Marty made the joke about three "cranes" being needed to lift Daphne. I didn't find the rate at which she lost weight to be entirely realistic, but I myself have lost 30lbs in a month through regular exercise, and drinking water. No chemicals or supplements. We don't know how long Daphne was supposed to be in that "spa", so it's presumptuous to say she lost weight in an overnight fashion simply because it happened over one or two episodes.

      Seeing as it would take a very dim individual not to be able tell Jane was with child, that the sub plot was meant as a cover, and the passage of time in the show is relative, I don't see it as such a big deal.

      Additionally they did toss out the idea that Daphne was binge eating due to stress and fears of inferiority when comparing herself to the image she felt she had to live up to when considering Niles' affections, which offended Niles and was a subject of conflict. It was trite, but what could they do?

      Another point I'd like to make is that Daphne was fully aware that she was gaining weight, she just wasn't dealing with it which is entirely realistic - especially for someone repressing feelings of inadequacy or facing depression. Just because she doesn't openly comment on it doesn't mean she's not aware of it. Deniselle, I suspect you're imposing your own personal experiences on this character as expecting her to behave as you might, rather than considering her own issues and what a character might do "behind the scenes".

      Anyway I think it was a better ruse than most sitcoms use. I actually appreciate that they weren't looking to turn a pregnancy into some didactic, contrived PSA for American obesity. I personally feel that would have been far more insulting.

      Lastly, I don't mean for this to come across as combative but I strongly disapprove of disparaging someone over their spelling and grammar. Unless someone conveys themselves as inexcusably ignorant, poking holes in their spelling seems like a cheap shot, meant to discredit them because we can't mount a proper rebuttal. "I disagree," "yeah well you can't spell, so your argument has no value". Since when was spelling our yard stick for a person's ability to reason? They got their message across. Unless we need a decoder ring to understand them, why publicly pick them apart? And even then, why humiliate them? It's just not civil.

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  6. Wow. Just wow.

    First off, when I tell someone to learn how to spell, I'm not trying to humiliate people who have trouble with spelling. I never say that to people who actually make good points. In fact, I only use it when people obviously used very little time to formulate a post and thus did it sloppily. The point is that I took a long time to write a post and they come in with a quick stereotypical rebuttal that they don't even bother to spell-check. Is that an unfair judgement? I don't know. How you word an argument is important though.

    On topic:
    I'd be willing to accept that some people liked the depiction of Daphne, or identified with it, but calling it realistic is a stretch. I've detailed my critique already, but just to reprise: 1. Daphne keeps eating in front of everyone, which most fat women would not do; 2. she's aware of it in the end, which is good, but it's unrealistic that she wouldn't have dealt with it sooner, i.e. when she has to buy a whole new wardrobe, or something. 3. The jokes are based on stereotypes and that's always lazy and sloppy writing.

    I know there are far more offensive sitcoms, but I hold Frasier to a higher standard because it (or at least the earlier seasons) was actually a relatively deep show with some psychological truths in it. In this respect, it fell short, and I believe the reason is our cultural ideas about fat people, which I already hate. So it angers me, it does. I have a right to be angry, too.

    I definitely didn't want a "PSA on American obesity". (And in fact one might aruge that Daphne's story WAS one.) I would have appreciated a thoughtful discussion of eating disorders. Not many shows have done that, beyond brief "Kelly takes too many diet pills" or "DJ stops eating and faints" episodes. The problem always stops immediately once they eat again. Daphne could have been given a lot of depth with an eating disorder, in my opinion. She could have gone to an ED treatment center instead of a "fat spa". She could have had a gradual recovery, perhaps with relapses. All they needed to do was RESEARCH the subject. I know they didn't have a lot of time to prepare, but still. They're professional writers.

    Please don't say that you weren't hurt and you laughed, so it's OK. If I'm hurt and you're not, we're both entitled to our reactions. This is my blog, so I wrote about my own reaction. I do not represent all fat people everywhere. But my annoyance here goes way beyond wanting to see myself on TV. It's not an isolated incident we see here, it's a cultural stereotype that fat people overeat, that we overeat GLEEFULLY, that we don't deal with our weight until we absolutely have to, that we can just shake off the weight with the right lifestyle, etc. Perpetuating such stereotypes is lazy and can be very harmful.

    I did find the "Maris gets fat" storyline offensive, but less so than the Daphne storyline, for a few reasons. It was a one-off episode, not a whole-season storyline thing like Daphne's weight gain. It was a bit crazy and overdone like all of the stuff about Maris. Also, Maris was depicted as having an eating disorder, even if it was never really dealt with, and perhaps should have been.

    This blog is not the place for advertising how you lost xx pounds. We've all been there and done that, but regardless how you do it, it all comes back. So let's just stay out of that territory.

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    1. First off I was not advertising anything. I said it because you indicated that it was unrealistic for a person to lose 60 pounds in a short period of time. I used my personal experience to offer supporting evidence for the argument that weight can be lost quickly. Which was followed up with "they never tell us how much time actually passes".

      The "fat spa" was meant as humor. It was a jab at rich people.

      Again - they state that Daphne did have an eating disorder that stemmed from anxiety, guilt and low self esteem. She was a compulsive over eater. She did not gleefully gain weight. It was realistic in that many people who have real eating disorders eat and eat and eat and DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THEY HAVE A PROBLEM. In order to continue their destructive behavior, they HAVE to be able to look at themselves in the mirror and say they're not fat or that they're ok with it even when they're not. Otherwise they'd go to pieces like Daphne finally did when she was forced to deal with it.

      This is why I said you were projecting - you were looking for your story, didn't get it and feel they did everyone a disservice. Could they have done better? Yes. Did they do a poor job? Far from it. I'm a psychology major and I deal with my own weight problems. I'm not saying this to advertise or to speak down to you, I'm telling you this so that you know I'm not just saying what I please with no personal experience or education to draw from, and that as a person who has struggled with weight issues since childhood, I was not offended by the fat jokes. If you felt that I was saying this to negate your feelings I apologize, it was my objective to relate MY take on it since our views differed so greatly.

      Lastly - you're right. It's your blog, you can say what you like. You are certainly entitled to your feelings. We all are and I wouldn't dream of robbing you of that. But when you speak in a format where others from the public can openly respond, it's prudent to expect both criticism and other perspectives to be expressed. Rather than respond with hostility toward those who engage you with their own feelings, you could use this as an opportunity to reevaluate your first take, better articulate your thoughts, engage others and perhaps grow a little.

      I leave you with this - Frasier pokes fun at the rich, the poor, the inept, The handicapped, the deranged, the disturbed and the damaged. Think back on how Niles used to comment on every support group he had, poking fun at MPD and gamblers, sex addicts, etc. No one was safe. Should the overweight be protected? Is there something sacred about our problem that makes it forbidden territory? Wouldn't singling us out to NOT comment be the real insult?

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  7. The funny thing is, you wrote just what I expected: "you responded aggressively to my comment? :( You're so childish and think-skinned! What you should do is..." FYI, you weren't so very kind the first time around, and I almost didn't even publish your post because of the tone.

    You can't come in here, read one post, and tell me how to see fat in Frasier, how to respond to my commenters, and whatever. You don't know me based on one post, you don't know my issues, and you cannot scold me for projecting. I don't care what your major is, it's just bad behavior.

    And this?

    " It was realistic in that many people who have real eating disorders eat and eat and eat and DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THEY HAVE A PROBLEM. In order to continue their destructive behavior, they HAVE to be able to look at themselves in the mirror and say they're not fat or that they're ok with it even when they're not. "

    Well, this is definitely not my experience of binge/compulsive eating or whatever my ED might be. And again, no it doesn't have to be exactly like me. But everything I've read about ED's points to a preoccupation with weight, self-loathing after binges, eating in secret, etc.

    So maybe my knowledge is limited. Maybe there are different ED's. But ask yourself this: what does it say about the writers that they chose to portray this type of eating disorder, and not the kind where people are obsessed with weighing and measuring themselves, spend their time reading diet blogs and watching diet shows, feel guilty about their hunger, and still can't stop eating?

    I adore Frasier. If I want to watch something relaxing, it's my go-to choice. I've seen every episode at least five times. But no show is beyond criticism, especially one that is generally well written. Media criticism should be harsh, especially when talking about areas of strong stereotyping.

    Is it more hurtful to not be singled out? NO. I don't know what you mean by "our problem" - just being overweight (which is not a problem IMO) or having eating issues. But these are sensitive, painful issues to many people, and mocking them is insensitive and pointless. It doesn't teach people anything about eating disorders. It just offers a cheap laugh for those who think fatties can't stop stuffing themselves. If you've had good experiences with fat jokes and don't feel sensitive, consider yourself lucky. But have empathy for those of us who can't always laugh. In my view, we should go by the most sensitive person's reaction. Otherwise everything is fair game and those who suffer from fat hate can just go in a corner and shut the fuck up.

    I advice you to read this blog properly, then you might realize where I'm coming from and why I didn't want you to mention your weight loss.

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  8. Contrastingly, I thought I might bring up another point of a similar nature. I had just recently watched an episode of Cheers that I had never seen before, in which Rebecca calls Lilith anorexic. That actually shocked me. It wasn't in passing, it wasn't some little comment or a joke, Rebecca looks at her and shouts, "Lilith, look, you are borderline anorexic!" Even worse that neither Frasier nor Lilith had nothing to say to that, they just looked down awkwardly as Rebecca continued to sputter out an assortment of very personal insults until getting a hold of herself and apologising. This made me cringe, firstly, because Bebe Neuwirth HAS been called anorexic, bulimic, too thin, etc. herself and why she didn't say anything about this script, I don't know; and secondly, because of knowing what I do about Kirstie Alley's problems with weight (although all that didn't start until about a year later.) Unfortunately, I've noticed that people are quite comfortable making fun of eating disorders. If they see someone who is overweight, they are quick to assume that they're simply lazy and could ably fix their problem, or if they see someone that's on the thin side, they'll assume that their anorexic or bulimic and worse, that it's purely out of vanity. I think I have an interesting standpoint because my father is obese, my mother yo-yo's, and I dealt with severe anorexia for a year. Sometimes I just don't know what to do with food, I either end up deciding to throw in the towel and binge or decide it's safer to have nothing at all... for several days. Even on reality shows they don't handle eating disorders well. There's The Biggest Loser, of course, because everyone has Jillian Michaels, a treadmill, and a television crew at the tip of their fingers. Then there are the anorexics/bulimics on intervention, who just get shipped off to a centre for several months and either do or don't recover. I agree with you 100% in saying that we should go by the most sensitive person's reaction. I don't even consider myself to be a sensitive person, but this is definitely a topic that needs to be handles carefully, and by that I don't mean avoiding it or sugar-coating everything, just being aware and sensitive to people who could (and maybe should) be offended and actually taking the time to learn before saying stupid things.

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  9. It is just a TV show. I hardly think it merits this much discussion. How about picking apart the media's portrayal of airbrushed models and actresses and not a sitcom subplot? That makes more sense.

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  10. I fail to see your point. One media portrayal against another. Why is one more important? Frasier is a very popular TV show, and I don't know about America, but it's in constant reruns in Finland.

    Of course, I'm not only talking about Frasier either. I'm talking about one popular way of seeing fat people and trying to make sense of our "different" or "wrong" body type. It's a cultural phenomenon that warrants discussion. Frasier is seen as somewhat more highbrow and intellectual than, say, Friends. Thus its portrayal of fat people might be seen as sympathetic or even psychologically valid, and I find it important to show where it falls into stereotyping.

    Also, I suspect your argument is really "Airbrushed models are horrible because we can't be perfect, but I don't care about fat stereotypes." Correct me if I'm wrong.

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  11. * "one popular way of seeing fat people and trying to make sense of our "different" or "wrong" body type." =
    meaning one way other people see us and try to make sense of our body type. Not the way *I* try to make sense of it.

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